Happy Thursday, my Cosmere Chickens! (Has this caught on yet? Have I made it A Thing? If I keep using it long enough it’s going to become A Thing through sheer tenacity of will, right? What if I make t-shirts, because I will totally make t-shirts if I get Dragonsteel’s blessing, don’t test me…) In this week’s installment of the reread, we join Adolin and company who are continuing along the road to Lasting Integrity. Adolin is continuing to be just an amazing partner and caring individual, Veil and Radiant are trying to help Shallan come to grips with her past, and prospects for the delegation’s success are not looking promising…
Reminder: We’ll be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now. If you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of the Stormlight Archive (this includes Edgedancer and Dawnshard as well as the entirety of Rhythm of War), best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Heralds: Chana, (Chanarach), Herald of the Common Man. Dustbringers. Brave/Obedient. Role: Guard.
A: Under normal circumstances, I’d attribute this to Adolin, who is frequently found guarding others. This time, though, I think it’s for Veil and Radiant, whose entire purpose is to guard Shallan from her own memories until she can handle them on her own.
L: I mean…
Icon: Pattern; denoting a Shallan chapter.
Epigraph:
Unfortunately, as proven by my own situation, the combination of Shards is not always a path to greater power.
L: Truth. Poor Saze’s stuck in the middle between two conflicting powers.
A: Indeed. I can’t help wondering why those two Shards thought they could work together for eternity; they’re so opposite.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Adolin, Shallan (well, mostly Veil and Radiant…)
WHERE: On the trail between the crossroads (see map) and Lasting Integrity
WHEN: 1175.4.7.2
(Note: For the “when” notations, we are using this wonderful timeline provided by the folks at The 17th Shard.)
Another chapter in which a lot of talking happens, but not much of real substance for a recap! Adolin and company are on the road to Lasting Integrity, followed by the strange people from the previous chapter. Veil and Radiant talk with Adolin and try to help him to understand what’s going on with Shallan.
Spren and Shadesmar
The large midnight stallion had taken to [Maya]—he wouldn’t let just anyone ride him—and seemed to recognize that she was injured somehow. Gallant stepped extra carefully, moving gently so Maya wouldn’t be knocked from her seat.
L: I’ve always loved the Ryshadium, so this was really cool to see. And it’s nice that Adolin is taking such good care of Maya, not that it’s surprising. He treats her like an individual rather than a burden, as so many of the spren do with the deadeyes.
A: It really was lovely. (Also, this will become important very soon…)
Buy the Book
The Witness for the Dead
“The more I think about it, the more I worry we should change how we approach the honorspren. Notum was convinced the honorspren wouldn’t talk to us. Worse than Syl.”
A: Even though it’s not the central theme of the chapter, there’s some significant setup for their arrival at Lasting Integrity. Adolin has some legitimate concern about his upcoming negotiations with the honorspren, despite all their preparations, and ends up in quite a good discussion with Veil and Radiant. He (rightly, as it turns out) doubts that the letters and gifts he’s bringing will do any good. How about bucket loads of Stormlight, delivered by Dalinar, if they’ll send a representative back for talks? How about exchanging emissaries, and the humans bring in tons of real rock to build a palace for the emissary?
L: It’s nice that he’s trying to come up with alternatives. Thinking ahead is one of his best qualities.
A: Unfortunately, Veil and Radiant both agree:
“If we worry they won’t even accept some letters and books, wouldn’t it be dangerous to offer extremely valuable gifts? They might see those as bribes, or as admissions of our guilt.”
A: Rats anyway. Well, how about we grovel and beg and admit that without their help, we’re doomed? Not that either…
“… at seeing you beg, I’d figure that I was correct to stay out of the conflict—because it’s unwinnable.”
A: Poor Adolin. As they agree, the honorspren have had hundreds of years to wallow in their anger and resentment, and have likely thought of and rejected all the arguments the humans can bring. They’re prepared to reject the arguments again, not reconsider them—especially since all the ones who were willing to reconsider have already done so and are bonded to Windrunners. They come back around to “just give them the letters and gifts and hope for the best,” but…
“Either that or we could surprise the honorspren.”
A: Frustratingly, Adolin doesn’t expound on that when Radiant asks. Is this the point where he first gets that idea about demanding to stand trial, do you suppose?
L: Maybe. I found it interesting that he looked back towards Gallant at that… and at Maya, who’s riding him.
Relationships and Romances
He’d learned from his father that a commander was best seen doing things, so he inspected the work, set the forward and rear guard for the day….
A: As much as Adolin is consciously angry at Dalinar over All The Things, he subconsciously acknowledges the valuable training he received from his father so frequently. I daresay it’s partly an artifact of his father also being the greatest general in the country; he learned from the best in many ways. But I do find hope for their future relationship in the frequent hints at the respect Adolin has for his father; once he gets past the need to prove himself to himself (forget the rest of the world!) I believe he’ll find the capacity to let go of his anger and accept Dalinar with all his flaws, just like he does Shallan.
L: People online: “But there’s no evidence in the text that Shallan is bi!”
“I still need to find my focus, Brightness,” Beryl said, keeping pace easily with her long Alethi legs. It was almost criminal how luxurious her dark hair was, despite there being little water for bathing.
L: Yeah, yeah, it is possible for women to appreciate beauty in other women without being attracted to them (trust me, I’m bi and grey-ace, I know this). But this happens a lot with Shallan. And combined with this Word of Brandon… yeah. One small rock in a wall in which the mortar is the WoB. I can forgive people for not seeing it outright, but—like Hoid’s appearances—once it’s pointed out to you, please do those of us who are LGBT and super excited about this a favor and stop denying it.
A: Yeah, no. I’m not going to just let you have this at your version of face value. The WoB is solid proof of Shallan’s bi-ness, and I’ll never argue that it doesn’t exist—but this description definitely is not solid proof. Evidence, depending on how you look at it, but not proof. Here’s why:
Shallan is just three weeks shy of her 19th birthday at this point. What were you like at 19? (I’m aiming this at women, especially.) Entering the wayback machine… At 19, I constantly compared myself unfavorably with pretty much every other woman I met. I was 5’11” and 115 pounds: tall, skinny, and flat. (Also with a big nose, buck teeth, a receding chin, and long, straight, super-thick hair that was really hard to do anything cute with.) At 19, I noticed this kind of thing about other women just like Shallan does—but not because I was sexually attracted to them. No, I merely envied them. I envied the curves, the coordination, the straight teeth, the pert nose, the cute haircut, the whole package. I felt like a giraffe with no sense of fashion, and no money to do anything about my lack of fashion if I knew how. Absolutely I noticed other women’s hair, figure, and carriage—because I wished I could be like that, and felt my own inadequacy.
Ever since we first met her, Shallan has disliked her own body—particularly her small bust, her unruly red hair, and her (comparatively) short stature. At 5’7″, she feels short and stumpy compared to the much taller (likely anywhere from 6’4” to 6’10”) Alethi women. In this scene specifically, her thought about Beryl’s “long Alethi legs” is in context of how easily Beryl maintains the pace—a pace Shallan, with her shorter Veden legs, has to push for. From the beginning, Shallan has spent most of her time feeling like an unkempt child pretending to be a grown woman—and feeling like she’s failing miserably at it. It was one of the things I found super relatable about her very early on, even when she mostly read like a spoiled teenager. I knew that feeling of being the wrong shape and size for the standard definition of beauty, and all through the books I have seen that in Shallan’s self-image.
So, sure, if it fits your view, you can read this as Shallan being physically attracted to Beryl, and you can claim it as your representation. No problem. But if you’re like me, you will primarily be inclined to read it as Shallan, as usual, being envious of the Alethi woman’s height, figure, and hair. As I said, this paragraph may be interpreted as evidence for Shallan being bi if you want to see it that way, but it’s certainly not proof, since there are other equally valid ways to see it. And I’m not giving this one away, because as much as you see your representation, I can equally see mine.
L: I’d just like to point out that I said in my initial comment that this one specific example doesn’t necessarily need to indicate attraction, but that it’s one instance of many which (should) lead us to the canonical conclusion. People who claim that there is no evidence in the text don’t seem to notice these for whatever reason, so I’m pointing out one of the more subtle ones. Can it be read as teenage envy/insecurity? Sure. There’s an argument to be made for interpreting text based on the reader’s viewpoint regardless of what the author intended; this was pretty much the basis of every high level literature course I took in college. All I’m saying is, can we in the fandom please stop insisting that a marginalized and highly underrepresented minority isn’t what the author canonically says they are? That’d be nice. Because it happens constantly in the fandom and I’m sick of that particular microaggression.
“Hey,” he said to Veil. “You have a moment?”
“I suppose,” Veil said. “I’m Veil right now, by the way.”
L: I really adore how she straight up tells him, just in case he didn’t notice.
A: It is nice that Veil and Radiant make sure he knows, though it doesn’t seem like he often needs to be told. They each have their personal idiosyncrasies, and he picks up on them very quickly—at least as long as they aren’t actively trying to deceive him.
“Let me consider,” Radiant said. “I am Radiant again, by the way.”
Adolin nodded.
L: I just adore how nonchalant he is about it. He’s completely accepting that this is a part of her.
A: I can’t help thinking that it’s only because he’s so accustomed to the way she normally is (or they normally are?), that he’s able to tell that things have changed between the Three.
…these last few weeks … I don’t know, she feels different. Off.”
He noticed! Shallan thought in a panic.
He noticed, Veil thought with relief.
L: ADORABLE.
A: I love that he noticed, but I find the difference in reaction heartbreaking and heartwarming at the same time. It’s wonderful that Veil is relieved, but Shallan’s panic hurts.
L: I agree. It’s Veil’s reaction that I found adorable. She’s protective of Shallan and I love how she seems to view Shallan and Adolin’s relationship so favorably, because Veil knows how good he is for Shallan. And this just proves that she’s right.
“Adolin, look. This is really complicated. It’s wrapped up in Shallan’s past, and the pain she felt as a child. Pain that I was created specifically to help her overcome.”
“I can help. I can understand.”
“I barely understand, Adolin,” Veil said. “And I’m living in her head.”
L: Bless Adolin for trying. But Veil’s got a point.
A: They may be using different criteria for “understanding,” I think. On a guess, Veil is thinking about the mechanics of how and why she was formed, and how exactly that’s supposed to help Shallan overcome the pain. She can hide the memories, but she can’t overcome them on her own. Adolin just wants to know what the trouble is that needs such overcoming—not because he’s being nosy about the details, but because if he can understand what happened, he can find a way to help. (I’m pretty sure that even at this point, Veil knows exactly what happened way back then; she won’t tell Adolin without Shallan’s approval, of course, but she knows.)
L: So the difference between empathy and understanding. If you’re empathic, you can sympathize with someone’s pain without necessarily needing to have felt it yourself. You can take an educated guess. (At least, that’s how I view it, as a highly empathic person.) Whereas someone who truly understands would have had something similar happen to them, so they’re intimately familiar with that exact type of pain.
A: If I’m right, this is somewhat borne out by the next bit:
“If she’s listening,” he said, “make sure she knows that I don’t care what she did. And tell her I know she’s strong enough to deal with this on her own, but she should know she doesn’t have to anymore. Deal with it on her own, that is.”
L: Adolin truly is the best kind of partner. The one who’s willing to stand aside and let you figure out what needs to be worked on within yourself… but also willing to step in and catch you if you fall.
A: He bears this out in the end, too. He fully acknowledges the enormity of what she did as a child, and at the same time he loves her for who she is. Not “despite who she is” or ignoring what she did, but just… loving her, and being there to help her work through it and do the next thing. This bit about not dealing with it on her own is huge foreshadowing, by the way. It’s going to be echoed in detail at the climax of this arc.
Bruised and Broken
Shallan put her hands to her head, feeling … unsettled. She could remember a time not so long ago when her personas hadn’t held arguments inside her head. They’d mostly remained isolated; she would shift without noticing. Was it healthier now that they worked together, even if they argued? Or was it more dangerous, since the conflict was so difficult?
L: A good question. I only have one friend who has DID, but the way she describes it is more like the former. Her personalities are aware of one another, but don’t actively interact. From what I understand, experiences on this vary from person to person. Is there a way to quantify “healthier” in regards to this? I suppose “causing the primary personality less emotional distress” would be the best way to measure it…
A: As a reader, it’s more fun to read when they argue and when they deliberately switch who’s active. Which is healthier? I have no idea how to measure that. For Shallan (and let me clarify that I’m not addressing RL issues, individual or general), I think it’s healthier that she’s moving away from the reactive coping mechanism and toward greater deliberation in coping. It carries a certain danger, when you think about how close she comes to going Formless, but for her it’s also the path to healing. (Also, necessary if poor little Testament is to have any hope of restoration, which would also go a long way toward healing Shallan’s trauma.)
“… Radiant and I are coping mechanisms that, for the most part, work. But something deeper has started to manifest.”
“Shallan is worried that the person you see in her is a lie. That the person you love is a lie. And it’s not only you.”
L: I really love that this conversation is happening, and that it’s coming from Veil. Brandon is making it so clear that Veil really cares about Shallan and is trying to help her. It’s going to make her eventual “death” hit a lot harder.
A: Harder, but also more beautiful.
“… Pattern, Dalinar, Jasnah, Navani—she worries that they all don’t know the real her.”
L: There’s a lot to unpack here. I think all of us have this fear sometimes, at different points in our life. Or at least… I have. Who am I, really? Am I different people to different groups of friends? Because when I am with person A I exhibit these characteristics, and with person B, I exhibit those ones… so which is the real me? Are any of these social masks I wear the Real Me? Does anyone know the Real Me? Hell… do I know the Real Me?
Like Shallan, I’ve thought deeply on these things a lot throughout my life. I think we all are like gems. We have many facets to our personalities, but those facets are all still the same gem, just different angles of it. Shallan’s still working on reaching that realization, which makes sense. She’s undergone a truly staggering amount of trauma for someone so young.
A: Hmm. I can honestly say that I’ve never thought much about it in myself. I adjust my interactions to the people I’m with, but with a very few exceptions, I’m still just me. Maybe because part of “just being me” involves adapting, I suppose.
L: Perhaps being active in theater and a writer plays a part for me, here. In both of these vocations, I need to actively “become” someone else and think as they’d think. Come to think of it… do I think about this more because I’m an actress… or did my thinking about this deeply lead in part to being drawn to theater? (Mind blown.)
Adolin nodded, his brow knit. “She couldn’t have told me that, could she?”
L: It would take a truly enormous amount of trust for her to overcome this fear. Hard for her to trust anyone else, even Adolin, when she’s been so horribly abused in the past.
A: I find it almost astonishing that Veil could tell him, even. There have been a few times lately where Veil has specifically thought about how good Adolin is for Shallan, which is pretty awesome personal growth for her—but I’m betting the only reason she got away with saying it is that Shallan is curled up in such a tight little ball she couldn’t stop it.
Oaths Spoken, Powers Awakened
“Yes, but I can’t change anything but my own appearance!” she said. “I know I can do more. I’ve seen the rest of you.”
“It’s limited for most of us at the start,” Shallan said, nodding toward Vathah, who was walking alongside the Cryptics. “The first time I caught him Lightweaving, he didn’t believe he’d actually done it. It seems to surprise him each time he makes it happen.”
L: It seems to work this way for a lot of the Radiants, to begin. Remember Kaladin using his powers unconsciously, when he first got them?
A: Yeppers. It always makes me wonder what it was like back in the heyday of the Radiants. Did spren back then bond with random people like this, and then bring them to join the Order once their powers started to develop? Or did people come to the Radiants hoping for a bond, and the spren chose from those who came, so they could start training from day one?
L: My totally not-based-in-textual-evidence-theory is both.
A: Whatever it was like back then, though, right now they all seem to be feeling their way forward one small step at a time!
“… If he wants to make an illusion of a large rock, he says he thinks like a rock. How does that even work?”
L: This makes sense to me. Your external appearance changing to match what you think you look like. Willing it to be so.
A: It makes sense to me too, but apparently not to everyone! I suspect the more literal-minded you are, the less that approach could work. I can imagine my sister reacting exactly like Beryl: “How does that even work?” It will certainly be interesting to see what finally works for her.
Secret Societies
She hadn’t forgotten her real duty—that of getting into the fortress and locating Restares, leader of the Sons of Honor. Even Radiant was eager to find this man, to discover what secrets he held that Mraize wanted so badly. Finding the spy was important, but this mission superseded it.
A: I found this absolutely infuriating from Veil. Finding Restares is the task assigned by that overblown, arrogant dirtbag Mraize; finding Mraize’s spy among her own people is only marginally less significant. It might even be more significant, depending on how you look at it. But both of those are secondary duties; her “real duty” is helping Adolin gain entrance to Lasting Integrity and successfully negotiate with the honorspren. It bothers me that Shallan’s Three are so willing to leave Adolin to worry about silly stuff like saving humankind by finding more honorspren willing to bond Windrunners. Nah, just let Adolin take care of that minor detail, Shallan/Veil/Radiant, you go fuss over your possible spy and your master Mraize’s carrot and stick…
L: I hadn’t thought about that, but you make a very good point.
Humans
“Wanna go confront them?” Zu asked, grinning.
“Two on twenty?”
“One of those two can shape stone at her will and make clothing into weapons.” … “Might as well give it a last hurrah! A new experience for the One.”
From below, Ua’pam called up, “Do not encourage her! She will do this foolish thing!”
L: Well, I like her already.
A: Heh. Too true—though I expect I’d find her rather disconcerting to be around for reals. Incidentally, I happened to be around one of the first times Brandon described what he was envisioning for Tension, and… well, it’s exactly this. “As if they could restructure the atoms so that they became a latticework like a crystal rather than being soft like… cloth.” I want to see it.
Oh, and note the reference to her Iriali heritage, with “A new experience for the One.” I can’t decide if I like her more because she’s a whole bunch of possible answers wrapped up in one person, or because she’s so unexpected and fun. Probably both.
Zu grinned at Adolin, then winked, as if her bravado were partially just to unnerve her spren. Even after weeks traveling with her, Adolin didn’t know what to make of the strange Stoneward.
L: Yep. Absolutely like her.
She lightly leaped off the outcropping and slid down the smooth obsidian, graceful as an Edgedancer.
A: I have to wonder… As a Stoneward, she has Cohesion and Tension. Is this Cohesion at work, sliding through the stone just a little, like we saw the makay-im doing last week?
Why go to all that trouble if we were just going to doubt the results?
Because I doubt everything, Veil said.
L: Honestly… this is wise, considering.
A: It certainly is. And really, you have to start somewhere to gather data; you just can’t trust the first data point you get.
We cannot erroneously condemn someone who might be innocent.
L: I really respect Radiant for this take. It’s what our whole justice system here in the USA is based on, after all. “Innocent until proven guilty.”
Brilliant Buttresses
The last few weeks, Shallan had been of two minds—well, three, technically—
L: ::gigglesnort::
A: Perfect chapter title, isn’t it?
We’ll be leaving further speculation and discussion to you in the comments, so have fun and remember to be respectful of the opinions of others! Next week, we’ll be back with chapter 33, wherein Kaladin begins to reshape the basic structure of mental health treatment on Roshar.
Alice is having fun with a new secret beta, which she’ll rave about when it’s cleared for discussion. She’s also deeply inconvenienced by the panic purchasing of refrigerators last year when people were freaking out about anticipated food shortages, because her refrigerator is in the process of dying a slow and painful death, and the inventory of new appliances these days is pathetic.
Lyndsey is hip-deep in preparations for the first post-pandemic Renaissance Faire of the season and is also a fantasy author herself. She’s been doing occasional tie-in videos to the reread and silly cosmere cosplay vids on TikTok, or you can follow her on Facebook or Instagram. Oh… If you’re a fellow Mistie and haven’t heard about the MST3K kickstarter, check it out and keep circulating the URL!
“Indeed. I can’t help wondering why those two Shards thought they could work together for eternity; they’re so opposite.”
I wonder if the Shards may have a subconscious desire to be reunited. Which might be why some settled together on the same world.
That was an…interesting conversation about Shallan’s bisexuality. IIRC, the first time it was brought up to Brandon on Twitter (when someone mentioned how much Shallan noticed Jasnah’s beauty), he seemed surprised that people read her that way, but he said (paraphrasing) that you can read it that way if you want. Now it seems that Brandon either finally revealed that she is bisexual (in that linked WoB), or he decided after the fact. Because I am with Alice on this: just because a woman focuses on the beauty of another woman doesn’t mean she’s necessarily sexually attracted to them. These little moments of Shallan’s are not proof of her sexuality. The WoB is, of course.
That being said, I was a big time Shallan/Jasnah shipper after tWoK came out. Alas…
@1 Shards working together
I feel like Ati and Leras decided to work together long before the intent of their shards began to overwhelm their own impulses and decisions. The worked together at the shattering (and who knows, maybe before) and so they felt that they could work together after ascension. Their deal was built with the intent of their shards in mind, but early enough that they may not have understood how much they would change. By the end, they seem bitter at one another, but it seems unlikely that they would deal with one another if that is how they began.
I have no textual basis for this feeling though.
@@@@@ 2 Austin
Brandon has talked a number of times in interviews about how he tends to “discovery write” his characters, designing them on a subconscious level and with his conscious mind just observing the characters as completed individuals and deciding whether or not they fit the story he is trying to write. So the way I read the point you raise is that when it was first brought up, Brandon did not know Shallan was bisexual, but that after it was brought up he realized that that was the case and has been writing her accordingly.
@@.-@ – That is an excellent point. I can totally see that.
You aren’t a Taoist? This would not confuse people familiar with the concept of yin and yang. It’s also totally consistent with psychoanalytic theories like those of Carl Jung. Being who he is (including a person who lived in Korea for some time), I guarantee that Brandon knows both of those.
Note that Preservation = Stasis = Death, where Ruin = Entropy = Time.
You can’t have a useful universe without those two opposing and reinforcing each other, IMO
For me, it’s because “noticing the appearance of the person you’re talking to” just seems … natural. Maybe also, I’m a hetero guy, so noticing a woman’s attractiveness also seems natural. Shallan does seem bi to me, but not because of this particular passage. Maybe my antennae are a bit mistuned.
How did Ruin and Preservation think they could work together? Well, opposites attract after all. You can’t build a planet if your purpose is destruction, and you can’t build one if your purpose is preserving. Also, I agree with @3 that Ati and Leras probably made the deal before being influenced by their shard’s intent much. After all, Vin wasn’t much different after ascending. IMO the “corruption” of the vessel by their shard’s intent is a gradual process. Sazed still seems like Sazed even though he’s bound by his powers and they seem to have influenced him. He’s held them for about 400 years IIRC, and I doubt it took that long for Ati and Leras to work together and create Scadrial.
Even if folks can’t find “absolute truth” in the text that Shallan is bi there is another factor that plays into this. At 19 she is still trying to find herself. This is typically the time that people who are away from home (say at college in our world) sometimes experiment with their sexuality. She could well be attracted to some of the other females but she is married to Adolin and she would no more act on that than she would with a man she found attractive. There is no reason to expect her to make overt actions to show attraction even if she feels it or wonders about it. I suppose Brandon could have written a paragraph where Shallan/Veil/Radiant had a discussion about this but it would hardly have fit into a story where NO other character says very much about the subject.Even with all love triangle stuff we had previously there was very little to go on.
I enjoy reading Zu and Ua’pam. I hope we get more of both of them in Book 5.
Alice. Perhaps the Shards believed in the axiom opposites attract. As Ruin and Preservation have opposite ideals, perhaps they could create something together in the way they could not separately. Later on in RoW, we learn that something that is thought of as opposite by some (Honor and Odium) can be harmonized (use of word intentional) to create something new. Also, Honor and Cultivation came together to form Tower Light. True, Honor and Cultivation are not complete opposites. Yet they do have some competing principles.
I chuckle every time I read Nazh’s comments he writes on maps and other documents he supplies Khriss. Great work by Team Brandon on those maps.
Lyndsey. I disagree with you that Shallan’s statement about Beryl’s hair is textual support that Shallan is bi (emphasis on is intentional). I will agree that it could be proof she is; but it may just Shallan making an observation and no sexual component to it. Until we get conclusive support in the text or we get a definitive WoB, then I will keep an open mind on the subject. I like Shallan as a character. Whether she is bi or not will not change how I feel about her. (That said, I can understand how if someone were bi and the fantasy genre does not have many such characters, it could be a bigger deal to him/her than it would be to me.)
If any of Shallan’s personas were bi, I think it would be Veil. I cannot give a reason as to why I think this. Just a hunch. And I am not even saying she is bi. Just that if one persona was, I think it is more likely to be Veil. Veil’s persona is supposed to be more open to new things. Shallan is the proper Vorin (or at least one with a sarcastic tongue); Radiant is the warrior who acts like Shallan thought that Jasnah would act in her role as a publicly open Knight Radiant. At first, Shallan though all Knights Radiant had to be warriors. It was only later (at least I think it was later) that Jasnah said a significant number of Knights Radiant were not martially inclined.
(Note. I wrote the above paragraph about Veil before I read the WoB Lyndsey linked in her comments. Feel free to be sceptical. But I will take my correct guesses where I can get them. I certainly do not get many Stormlight Archive related theories correct.)
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
This is slightly off topic, but can someone explain why Shallan’s chapter icon is white on black? For all the other characters, that indicates a flashback chapter.
Is the reason Veil and Radiant need to identify themselves as such to Adolin is because they are running low on stormlight and they can’t change their hair color which enables people to identify them at a glance?
Tall Alethi women are 6’4-6’10 in height?? This would make tall Alethi men over 7′ in height and Horneaters and Singers even taller. WOW!!! I don’t know why I find this very interesting :)
My (tin foil hat) shard theory: The Shards will eventually all come together (like magnets I imagine) and form a new Adonalsium and this cycle of Shattering and rejoining will continue similar to WoT!!!! Maybe the Vessels knew this and that’s the reason they made the pact of separation and non interference initially.
@11 – That’s the first time I’ve ever seen those height estimates. I don’t know where they got that from.
@11 and 12 re: Alethi Height
If you browse around Coppermind.net under Alethkar and Roshar you can see information about how Roshar has lower gravity than Scadrial (1G) and that the Alethi are “on average at least a foot taller than people living further West” (Edgedancer).
I don’t know about the specific measurements mentioned however.
I need to respond to a bunch of stuff here, and don’t really have time for a full treatment…
Carl, of course I’m not a Taoist. You should know that by now. That doesn’t, however, mean that the concepts are unfamiliar.
@many – Like we said in the article, there’s WoB that Brandon decided to make Shallan “passively bi” if that’s a term. Two notes on that:
One, he did say it, and if you wish, you can read anything you want in a way that reinforces it – but as many of us have said, Shallan’s description of another woman isn’t proof of anything. As I said in different context recently: if we’ve got a woman’s POV, how are we going to know what another character looks like, if she doesn’t tell us? Do we have to wait for a man’s POV to know what a woman looks like?And it’s simply silly to assume that every time a female character describes any attribute of another woman in a positive way, it’s because she’s bisexual. I don’t care if she is, that assumption is grasping at straws.
The second point is that Brandon has frequently said that WoBs are not, in fact, canon. Until it’s in a book, it’s not canon. That doesn’t mean he’s likely to change his mind on (now) deliberately writing Shallan in a way that can be read as bi; it’s just me being pedantic about the use of words. As near as I can tell, from 10+ years of reading Brandon’s WoBs and talking with him, he was surprised by the suggestion that Shallan read as bi to some people, but since he’s always open to “representation” he decided to continue to write her in a way that people could have some level of wish fulfillment, and even deliberately gave them a bit more fuel. I doubt he’ll ever write her as acting on it, unless Adolin dies, but he’ll let the representation stand in a passive form. (For what it’s worth, I still don’t think this particular description is much fuel; the scene with Veil in the tavern was much more useful in that regard.)
Re: height – Shallan has frequently talked about the Alethi as “freakishly tall” (usually when she’s teasing Adolin) and has always implied that, even at 5’7″, she feels very short compared to the Alethi women. Someone else mentioned the WoB that Alethi tend to be about a foot taller than people farther west. The guesstimate of 6’4″ to 6’10” is based on that and a bunch of other indications that the Alethi (both men and women) are much taller on average than what we’re used to. No, those numbers aren’t from Dragonsteel Secret Files – they’re just to give a logical frame of reference. One thing that went into pointing this out is another of my college recollections. As I said, I was 5’11” – I have a long stride. One of my best friends was 5’2″ and she was frequently frustrated by the fact that she felt like she was always on the verge of running to keep up. Shallan’s remark about Beryl “keeping pace easily with her long Alethi legs” sounded exactly like something Candyce would have said about me.
One thing I didn’t say in the OP and probably should have: I’ve always wondered if Beryl’s “oddly luxurious hair despite lack of water for washing” was a hint at her completely unconscious use of Lightweaving. It would be pretty appropriate, given that their whole conversation is about how hard it is for her to do certain things consciously.
@14 – I know Roshar is different from Earth (ages not exactly the same, etc) but I’d like some kind of confirmation directly from Brandon that Alethi women are that tall. Here in the real world, women that tall are extremely rare anywhere in the world, let alone an entire nation of women. So, conceptually, it’s hard to wrap my brain around an entire nation of WNBA-tall women. I know it’s fantasy and Brandon could make women 8 feet tall if he wanted, but I’m going to need more evidence than a guess based on one comment about Alethi being a foot taller. Did Brandon say they were a foot taller than Shallan? Or just the rest of Roshar? How tall is Shallan’s height compared to the Veden average? Maybe Shallan is considered very tall for her country.
I love this chapter because it lets Adolin’s love for Shallan shine, and I am a sucker for a sweet and caring man. :)
I agree with Alice and Austin that it never even occurred to me to read Shallan as bisexual. I am a heterosexual woman, but even in my 30s and feeling relatively comfortable in my skin, I still notice beautiful things about other women. As Shallan once said about Kaladin (paraphrase): you can look at a piece of art and enjoy it without wanting to get intimate with it. At 19, I was the opposite of Alice physically (5’2″ with a fairly athletic build), but was equally insecure and extremely jealous of women with curves. I would have definitely made all the observations we have seen Shallan make about Jasnah and Beryl. That said, none of this is a hill I am willing to die on because Shallan’s sexuality really doesn’t have any impact on how I see her character. As long as she remains faithful to Adolin, she can admire anyone she wants and still have my respect!
Perhaps because I am 5’2″ with very short legs, I walk SUPER fast so have never really had problems keeping up with taller people. My dad is 6’0″ though and waits for no man or woman, so even as a child it was keep up or fall WAY behind! I bet if you are used to having Stormlight to supplement strength it would be frustrating to suddenly struggle to keep up, though.
@RogerPavelle
I had not realised that current and flashback chapter icons were different before I read your comment. So I looked at them starting from tWoK.
Kaladin’s current and flashback chapters differ only in the banners. Current chapters have a black banner with white border and glyphs, flashback is white banner with black border and glyphs.
Shallan’s Pattern icon is similarly colored, in the sense, current is black background and white Pattern and flashback is white background and Black Pattern.
Dalinar’s is a white shield (etched in black) placed on a black circle and flashback is black shield on white circle.
Adolin, Moash, Navani and Bridge 4 chapters (which are current) are black on white. Szeth current chapters are white on black.
Eshanoi and Venli current are black on white and flashback are white on black.
Taln and Lift current chapter icons are white on black [I think :) ]. Jasnah with or without Shallan is half and half?
So there is a mix of w/b or b/w here and not a consistent pattern.
@14 Alice
Thank you for the height clarification :). Even though there are more weighty matters to discuss in this chapter, the height issue came as a revelation to me and it was all that held my attention till I had to comment on it.
@17 – The pattern is that the flashback characters’ (Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Eshonai/Venli) icons are reversed when it’s a flashback chapter, i.e. b/w to w/b.
Yes, of course. What I meant was that white on black does not always indicate a flashback chapter.
@Wetlandernw(Alice):
Sorry, I clearly gave the wrong impression with that writing. If you had heard my voice when I said that, you would have realized (I hope) that it was ironic humor, because of course I knew that you weren’t a Taoist. And of course, I knew that you were familiar with yin/yang, or I would have explained it instead of just referring to it.
This is exactly my reaction.
@19 – True, but it’s not supposed to change. Shallan was a flashback character; hence the confusion.
@17
Here’s what I was referring to for the regular icons (see here for a quick reference):
Shallan – White Pattern on Black background
Kaladin – Black Spears/flag on White background
Dalinar – Black Crest/castle on White background
Eshonai/Venli – Black Figure on Shaded background
Adolin – Black Shardbearer on White background
Bridge 4 – Black Shoulder/Patch on White background
KR (see chapter 1) – Black Swords/Eye on White background
Navani, Wit, Taravangian, etc. – Mostly shaded so it is hard to determine, but for many the main image is defined by the black (like Navani)
Note that Shallan’s icon is the only one where the main image (Pattern) is White. For those where there are flashbacks, the background is reversed, as is the figure (with Dalinar, the background becomes black but the icon remains shaded/black).
So, what I was wondering is why Shallan’s regular icon isn’t a Black Pattern on a White background, as it isn’t consistent with the others.
@22 RogerPavelle
I totally agree with you that a lot of regular/present timeline chapters are black on white.
But I still feel that Kaladin, Dalinar, Szeth, Lift and Taln in the regular/ present timeline are white on black, just like Shallan’s.
In Kaladin’s case, note that both present and flashback chapters have black spears on white background, what differentiates between the two is the banner or flag attached to the central large spear. (Unfortunately, the link you have provided has all icons except Kaladin flashback and I don’t know how to insert a link for the flashback icon). Regular icon’s banner has white glyphs on black background. Flashback banner is black glyphs on white background. So based on the banner, I am arguing that Kaladin and Shallan’s present chapters are white on black because the spears are same for both timelines of Kaladin.
Dalinar, I accept is a bit open to interpretation. I get what you mean but I kinda see it as white shield on a black circle in regular chapters (even though the white shield has black markings of a castle and crown).
Anyways I could be wrong in my interpretation of things, but I am enjoying this debate way too much to stop!!!!!
@23 Dee
I checked and can see what you meant about Kaladin’s icon. I guess I was reacting much more to all the regular ones being (to me) black on white so that Shallan’s really stood out as different.
Well, the sign of a good author is when we see ourselves in the characters on the page. Object relations for the win.
Empathy is a tricky topic. There are similarities found in types of suffering and at the same time the suffering in question happens to a unique human being. I‘ll speak for myself here. I am of the view that it’s possible to have an understanding based around the nature of the loss/suffering/injury/trauma, but not their unique understanding. Those shared similarities do help with empathy and themes in shared experiences, especially in a therapy group setting, and (not but, I don’t like to use that conjunction for such a complex issue) those similarities happened to a unique person. When I do this type of thing well, it preserves the strength of shared suffering while honoring that they were in their own body when it happened; what happened to them happened to them. I wasn’t there with them anymore than they were there with me in my experiences, no matter the sensory overlap, shared perception, or even the specificity of the trauma or loss in question. I don’t know if I’m making a whole lot of sense. Some might describe it as pure semantics. For me it’s a distinct amount of connection that preserves one’s own identity and the level of autonomy appropriate to the category of relationship. A both/and of shared experience and embodied perception. Not an either/or of absolute understanding or none at all.
Personality, innate trait vs. environmental state; for the Shards it’s the power devoid of context in the equally present characteristics of the individual being and that being’s intent (maybe represented by the dawnshards).
So it’s not just a skewed bell curve of opposite forces, it’s the absence of equally matched integrated personal attributes (morality/personhood) and unlimited power (states/attributes). It’s a fun use of systematic theology in worldbuilding.
I was initially mistaken in thinking that Sazed would be more powerful, but he only holds two access points, each one unlimited, yet limited by the one who holds it . Each one an infinite power/attribute connected to a small shadow/reflection of the divine. And he can’t hold them perfectly because he’s not the right person, his characteristics/personality would need to be immutable, entirely consistent in being and action. He will end up paralyzed in place after a few thousand years, completely subordinate/obedient/conformed to the attributes/powers he holds. Like the others.
Like Alice, I was and am an akward, conventionally unattractive woman (I’ve grown a little more into my looks as an adult, but I’m still unusual looking, and without the fashion sense/skill in makeup and hair to really capitalize on it. Or inclination, frankly) so I can 100% relate to this reading of Shallan (I also missed some of the hints regarding her view of Jasnah because I viewed it much the same way – a girl in awe of another strong, competent, confident, beautiful woman; heh, I may also have a girl crush on Jasnah, tbh). But I see how it can be seen the other way, and if Brandon says shes bi, well, she’s bi, and this is part of that expression for this character. FWIW, I felt like Veil’s way of talking/thinking about women came across more as bi (which I think is also a potential hint about Shallan) than things like this.
But in some ways it’s similar to Jasnah’s representation as ace (which I think Brandon has come out and confirmed) – I’m happy for others who wanted that representation, but she’s also a character I saw a lot of myself in when it comes to how I handled romantic relationships until I found the right person (to the point that people actually ribbed me about it and questioned my sexuality, which was very irritating).
I think the point is that people’s sexualities are all expressed in a variety of ways.
I have such a huge soft spot for Shallan and Adolin, especially in these chapters, because a lot of their themes right now are kind of similar to something I wrote (and I guess, again, the idea that nobody would like the ‘real’ me is something that hits home just as an insecure teen, no horrible misdeeds needed).
Others have gone into this but I can certainly see how Ati/Leras may have wanted to work together as a kind of ‘balance’…after all, I find that to be in some ways the greater theme of the cosmere (and a nice parallel to what we will see in Raboniel/Navani’s portions).